Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 7:15 am

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by Luigi

dklx3 wrote:

Sorry, I can't imagine a situation in which order of interest payment makes any difference. Any order that makes certain everybody who owes actually pays should be fine.

4 player game: Player-A, Player-B, Player-C and Player-D. It is the Player-A's turn.

Supply Action: He moves his ship on Interest.

Interest for Loan Cards: Player-C and Player-D have to pay 1 Franc for loans and for this they have to sell a wooden ship.

Main Action: Player-A takes a Building Action, and NOW he has enough francs to buy a ship.

What wooden ship can Player-A buy?

:what:

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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 8:09 am

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by Beyak

Luigi wrote:

dklx3 wrote:

Sorry, I can't imagine a situation in which order of interest payment makes any difference. Any order that makes certain everybody who owes actually pays should be fine.

4 player game: Player-A, Player-B, Player-C and Player-D. It is the Player-A's turn.

Supply Action: He moves his ship on Interest.

Interest for Loan Cards: Player-C and Player-D have to pay 1 Franc for loans and for this they have to sell a wooden ship.

Main Action: Player-A takes a Building Action, and NOW he has enough francs to buy a ship.

What wooden ship can Player-A buy?

:what:

I am fairly certain that everybody must pay the interest simultaneously.
In the scenario you described Player-C and Player-D took extra actions,(selling ships), out of turn. That is not allowed. If they do not have enough money to pay for the interest they owe, they must take out another loan. Note that Player-A could not have sold a ship either to generate the francs for the interest payment. At least that is how we have interpreted the rules.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 8:32 am

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by Luigi

Beyak wrote:

I am fairly certain that everybody must pay the interest simultaneously.In the scenario you described Player-C and Player-D took extra actions,(selling ships), out of turn. That is not allowed. If they do not have enough money to pay for the interest they owe, they must take out another loan. Note that Player-A could not have sold a ship either to generate the francs for the interest payment. At least that is how we have interpreted the rules.

I don't know if everybody must pay the interest simultaneously, but surely ALL players may sell ships to pay the 1 Franc in interest..

From the rules, at the bottom of page 4, under Interest for Loand cards:
"A player who cannot pay this Franc must either sell a building or ship or take another loan card and must then pay the 1 Franc."

And on page 6, Selling:
"This actions may even be taken during another player's turn, but not while she is taking an action."

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 8:49 am

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by lostphd

Luigi wrote:

dklx3 wrote:

Sorry, I can't imagine a situation in which order of interest payment makes any difference. Any order that makes certain everybody who owes actually pays should be fine.

4 player game: Player-A, Player-B, Player-C and Player-D. It is the Player-A's turn.

Supply Action: He moves his ship on Interest.

Interest for Loan Cards: Player-C and Player-D have to pay 1 Franc for loans and for this they have to sell a wooden ship.

Main Action: Player-A takes a Building Action, and NOW he has enough francs to buy a ship.

What wooden ship can Player-A buy?

:what:

This is a glitch in the rules which probably should be fixed. ships sold to the town, according to the rules, return to the stack of ships yet to be bought. They should not be - they should be added to the town's buildings. I do not understand the rationale for a sold ship to be returned to the stack - how can you build the same ship twice?

If you give the sold ships to the town, player-A could then buy any of the available ships in the town, as well as build or buy any remaining in the stack.

What is the maximum victory point spread here, 4 points? [wooden ships range from 2 to 6 francs in end game value, right?]

Anyone who sells a ship to pay interest instead of taking a loan to do so is not playing Le Havre very well. The interest paid in francs on the loans is minor compared to the loss in food from the ship.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 8:55 am

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by lostphd

Luigi wrote:

Very rarely matter, but sometimes may...

In what order players pay interest? And what is the order of players during the feeding phase?

Thanks.
:)

Your question on interest is sparking a fair bit of discussion, but the second question was not answered yet.

Since the only thing you can do in the feeding phase is pay food costs through food, francs, or loans, the order of players should not matter.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 9:06 am

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by dklx3

lostphd wrote:

Luigi wrote:

Very rarely matter, but sometimes may...

In what order players pay interest? And what is the order of players during the feeding phase?

Thanks.
:)

Your question on interest is sparking a fair bit of discussion, but the second question was not answered yet.

Since the only thing you can do in the feeding phase is pay food costs through food, francs, or loans, the order of players should not matter.

All the interests have to be paid before anything else can happen.

Back to my first thought, I can't imagine a scenario in which order matters.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 9:06 am

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by Luigi

lostphd wrote:

As far as I recall, ships are sold to the town, not back to the stack of ships yet to be bought. If this is right, Player-A can buy any wooden ship which is available, either from the town or from the stack of unought ships.

From the rules page 6, Selling:
"When a player sells a ship, it is placed on top of the pile of ship cards of that type."

lostphd wrote:

However, anyone who sells a ship to pay interest instead of taking a loan to do so is not playing Le Havre very well.

I don't know, I'm not an expert.

lostphd wrote:

Your question on interest is sparking a fair bit of discussion, but the second question was not answered yet.

Since the only thing you can do in the feeding phase is pay food costs through food, francs, or loans, the order of players should not matter.

This is not true. From the rules page 7, Feeding phase:
"A player who does not have enough food must choose either to sell buildings or to take a Loan card (or cards)."

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 9:12 am

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by Luigi

dklx3 wrote:

All the interests have to be paid before anything else can happen.

This is not true. From the rules, bottom of page 5, Buying:
"In addition to the Supply and Main actions, a player can buy one or more Building and/or Ship cards at any time during his own turn (even before taking the Supply action or Main action)."

dklx3 wrote:

Back to my first thought, I can't imagine a scenario in which order matters.

You can see my second post above for the scenario.

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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 10:58 am

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by lostphd

lostphd wrote:

Your question on interest is sparking a fair bit of discussion, but the second question was not answered yet.

Since the only thing you can do in the feeding phase is pay food costs through food, francs, or loans, the order of players should not matter.

This is not true. From the rules page 7, Feeding phase:
"A player who does not have enough food must choose either to sell buildings or to take a Loan card (or cards)."

Yes, this is what I meant by raising food costs through francs. You can sell buildings (but not ships) to raise francs. The order in which buildings are sold should not have a meaningful impact on game play.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 10:59 am

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by gische

It's pretty clear that the rules state that any ship sold goes atop the pile of available ships of that type. So if you're playing by those rules, then the question of order of interest payments is a valid one. I'd venture that in any case where you found you need to determine an order, you do it in player order beginning with the current player.

I do agree with the comment that this particular rule seems screwy. Sold buildings can't be rebuilt in this game, so why should sold ships be available to be rebuilt? It's a reasonable tweak to play that sold ships go to the city, not atop their relative ship stack, and can only be bought, not built.

I also agree with the comment that points out how unlikely this situation should be. Selling a ship should pretty much never be done instead of taking loans. You get so little cash back for them, and you're giving up huge opportunity cost by letting them go.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 11:03 am

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by lostphd

After my initial reply, I checked the rules and edited my post. You can see the edited post further up in the thread.

To summarize: The rule which says that sold ships should be placed back on the stacks is illogical. A ship can only be built or bought once. It should be sold to the town, and not back to the stack.

If this is done, the situation you outline can have no effect on game play, as all ships would still be available to be bought by Player-A.

He would logically buy the ship with the highest franc value.

This is just an interpretation - there is nothing in the rules which covers the eventuality of more than one player selling a ship to pay interest in the interest phase. A fascinating loophole which I am glad you pointed out.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 18, 2013, 11:05 am

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by lostphd

gische wrote:

It's pretty clear that the rules state that any ship sold goes atop the pile of available ships of that type. So if you're playing by those rules, then the question of order of interest payments is a valid one. I'd venture that in any case where you found you need to determine an order, you do it in player order beginning with the current player.

I do agree with the comment that this particular rule seems screwy. Sold buildings can't be rebuilt in this game, so why should sold ships be available to be rebuilt? It's a reasonable tweak to play that sold ships go to the city, not atop their relative ship stack, and can only be bought, not built.

I also agree with the comment that points out how unlikely this situation should be. Selling a ship should pretty much never be done instead of taking loans. You get so little cash back for them, and you're giving up huge opportunity cost by letting them go.

Well said. You beat me to the same opinion by scant seconds. Apologies to the thread for the repetition.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Setup with Black Market and Clay Mound

January 19, 2013, 8:03 pm

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by testcranker

I've had the clay mound come up and like a dope I didn't notice and player #2 picked it up immediately. I've never seen the BM sit on top of the building queue, but it can happen and it really is too much of an advantage for the first player. Good suggestions I think.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Rules Changes from the Australian 2009 Edition

January 21, 2013, 11:44 am

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by testcranker

Ponton wrote:

The new editions added some expert rules (optional) that are what you mentioned:

1. optional rule: pay 2 francs interest if your number of loans is >= number of players

2. optional rule: only sell stuff on your own turn or when the game wants you to pay something, but you're short on money

#2 changes the game way too much for my liking. I haven't tried # 1 but I am not one that thinks that "loans were broken" to begin with.

Thanks for the answers though.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Interest for Loan cards and Feeding phase

January 21, 2013, 11:55 am

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by testcranker

Luigi wrote:

Very rarely matter, but sometimes may...

In what order players pay interest? And what is the order of players during the feeding phase?

Thanks.
:)

I will say the way we interpreted the rules for interest. We ended up having to enforce interest is due at the moment the boat counter touches the disc with the interest note written on it. All players pay simultaneously. Normally, everyone uses loans to cover interest if you not have the franc(s) to pay it. I've never seen anyone sell anything to pay for it. It is possible, but not common.

I would also not consider the interest due moment to be part of a players action, rather one that occurs before the action. My own interpretation of course.

Feeding is simultaneous but occurs at the end of the round, after the owning players action. Thus no advanatge or disadvanatge can be gained. Again, my own interpretation.

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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Rules Changes from the Australian 2009 Edition

January 22, 2013, 5:37 am

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by Ponton

#2 prevents selling a building in the second before it's your turn to re-buy it on your turn to use it (probably again).

Reply: Le Havre:: News:: Re: Once more with feeling: Looking for ideas for a new set of standard buildings

January 23, 2013, 3:54 pm

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by Redward

This would have been so so awesome.

Reply: Le Havre:: Sessions:: Re: Solo play high score of 433

January 26, 2013, 8:51 am

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by didGeek

601 points are still achievable with "plant nursey", "department of economics" and "labour exchange"! Did someone achieved more?

New Image for Le Havre

January 29, 2013, 9:49 am

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by LiteBulb88

Colorful resources

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: Le Harve or Agricola?

January 29, 2013, 6:29 pm

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by ron42na

I posted this on the Agricola forum also...I'd like to get input from people in both camps if possible.

I'm planning to buy one of these for my gaming group, and I'm looking for advice on which one to get. A little background on the group...

One person has severe ADHD, one has pretty severe AP - so getting the game that's least prone to AP is good for my group. (early AP is especially bad)

The group is a mix of hardcore gamers (me and the AP person), and mid to light gamers. For the lighter gamers, they prefer minimal direct conflict between players - but some conflict is ok. (ex: Settlers, Lemmings, and Dominion are favorites for everyone, and Dominant Species and Eclipse are ok for all but person...Steam was borderline ok for everyone). I'm ok with getting a game that works for all but the really conflict averse person (since they are only there 50% of the time).

Lighter euro's like Ticket to Ride, Settlers and Carcasonne have gone over well, but Power Grid was nixed by the very conflict averse player after a few tries. (interestingly, everyone liked Titan)

A couple points I think are important for my group are; (1) strategy variability, and (2) recover-ability from early mistakes. For the strategy variability, I want to ensure whichever one I get has a lot of different ways to win. For the recover-ability, I want to ensure players don't get totally screwed if they make a couple early mistakes. (or if that is the case, be easy to avoid getting totally screwed with a few tips before we play)

Thanks!