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Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by doctoryes0

Kyellan wrote:

One thing I really like about Le Havre is that the decision space starts very small and grows over time, allowing new/less experienced players to adapt gradually.

At the beginning, the only buildings available have only one effect: build another building. Your first turns just consist of picking up resources, either to pay a building cost or to have enough food at the end of the round. Only as buildings appear do you have more options open up, and each early building has a pretty clear cost and effect.


Yes, that's the brilliance of LH in a nutshell. Compare that to Agricola where you have to read and assess something like 18 cards prior to t1, then sort through all of the possible actions right after that... there's no question which game is more inviting to first-time players.

What's more, I've heard that when players get to a certain level with Agricola they don't even play out the game, just draft the cards and discuss how the game theoretically would have gone.

I gotta say, other than the fact that LH dwindles with every player added over 2, I have no idea why Agricola is so much more popular...

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by Dark_Knight

Similarly there is a movement....at the beginning the emphasis is all on getting wood, clay, food (clay, wood, and food in a Uwe game? NO WAY), but later its all on energy, coal, steel...so that in later rounds there can be like 7 cows lying on a space and its not even the best move to take it....

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by abdiel

gameon3948 wrote:

Replayability. The order the goods accumulate in the harbor is randomly determined each game (and then remains the same throughout the course of the game once revealed). Also, the buildings available to be built are ordered differently each game. As only the top building on each of three stacks can be built at any given time, this changes strategies as well. Finally, there are quite a number of Special Buildings (36 in the base game), of which only 6 are used (chosen randomly) in any given game. These provide quite a lot of variety to each game. All these aspects combine to mean you must reevalute each game when to take goods, when to let them accumulate, which buildings to build, and when.

This sounds like there's a lot of variability in the set up, not necessarily much replayability.

If you always used the same set up--same goods/buildings order, same special buildings, etc.--would the game still be worth playing over and over again?

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by jdw734

abdiel wrote:

This sounds like there's a lot of variability in the set up, not necessarily much replayability.

If you always used the same set up--same goods/buildings order, same special buildings, etc.--would the game still be worth playing over and over again?


I still have fewer than ten plays of LH under my belt, but my feeling is yes. Even if the goods/buildings order is the same, you (and your opponents) will make different decisions throughout the game, and so you will be presented with different opportunities each turn.

I feel like you can ask this question about a lot of games that don't have any luck (e.g. draw cards, roll dice) during the game play. But the board is changing constantly with each decision a player makes. So unless each player makes the exact same decisions in the same order, you have replayability.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by mlcarter815

abdiel wrote:

gameon3948 wrote:

Replayability. The order the goods accumulate in the harbor is randomly determined each game (and then remains the same throughout the course of the game once revealed). Also, the buildings available to be built are ordered differently each game. As only the top building on each of three stacks can be built at any given time, this changes strategies as well. Finally, there are quite a number of Special Buildings (36 in the base game), of which only 6 are used (chosen randomly) in any given game. These provide quite a lot of variety to each game. All these aspects combine to mean you must reevalute each game when to take goods, when to let them accumulate, which buildings to build, and when.

This sounds like there's a lot of variability in the set up, not necessarily much replayability.

If you always used the same set up--same goods/buildings order, same special buildings, etc.--would the game still be worth playing over and over again?


If you did that, you wouldn't be playing the same game. You'd be playing a variant of the game.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by abdiel

mlcarter815 wrote:

If you did that, you wouldn't be playing the same game. You'd be playing a variant of the game.

Variable set ups are nice in order to provide some spice and variety. But they can also act as a smoke screen for poor game design if the replayability is dependent on them.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by gameon3948

abdiel wrote:

gameon3948 wrote:

Replayability. The order the goods accumulate in the harbor is randomly determined each game (and then remains the same throughout the course of the game once revealed). Also, the buildings available to be built are ordered differently each game. As only the top building on each of three stacks can be built at any given time, this changes strategies as well. Finally, there are quite a number of Special Buildings (36 in the base game), of which only 6 are used (chosen randomly) in any given game. These provide quite a lot of variety to each game. All these aspects combine to mean you must reevalute each game when to take goods, when to let them accumulate, which buildings to build, and when.

This sounds like there's a lot of variability in the set up, not necessarily much replayability.

If you always used the same set up--same goods/buildings order, same special buildings, etc.--would the game still be worth playing over and over again?


I don't think I'm the best person to ask. I tend to dislike games lacking any variable set up. Personally I find meaningful variable set up adds replayability to a games, but it seems we may be in disagreement regarding the particular terminology.

On the other hand, variable setup doesn't guarantee replayabilty. Some games have variable setup which ultimately does very little to change the decisions you make during the game. However, I assure you Le Havre is not one of these, the variable setup is extremely meaningful--and that is the point I was trying to make.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by davey314

I agree ... this is one of my favorite games ... especially 2-player. We've played over 50 games (mostly 2-player) and our highest score so far was 263.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by DavidT

doctoryes0 wrote:



What's more, I've heard that when players get to a certain level with Agricola they don't even play out the game, just draft the cards and discuss how the game theoretically would have gone.



This can't possibly be true. Can it?

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by ChrB

Thanks for the review. I agree that it's a great game!

My only concern is the (strategic) replayability; yes, there is definitely some variety, but most games tend to be about getting a lot of coke and steel and ship those goods. It's hard to win without doing that, at least that's my experience after playing Le Havre ~20 times.

Also, I don't like that getting a loan (or several) is not that bad; I think the penalty for getting those should be increased.

New Video for Le Havre

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by Salimo

ChrB wrote:

Thanks for the review. I agree that it's a great game!

My only concern is the (strategic) replayability; yes, there is definitely some variety, but most games tend to be about getting a lot of coke and steel and ship those goods. It's hard to win without doing that, at least that's my experience after playing Le Havre ~20 times.

Also, I don't like that getting a loan (or several) is not that bad; I think the penalty for getting those should be increased.


Both of these issues are highlighted when one plays the iPad implementation a few times...it really makes the game feel very repetitive.

New Image for Le Havre

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by gameon3948

Salimo wrote:

ChrB wrote:

Thanks for the review. I agree that it's a great game!

My only concern is the (strategic) replayability; yes, there is definitely some variety, but most games tend to be about getting a lot of coke and steel and ship those goods. It's hard to win without doing that, at least that's my experience after playing Le Havre ~20 times.

Also, I don't like that getting a loan (or several) is not that bad; I think the penalty for getting those should be increased.


Both of these issues are highlighted when one plays the iPad implementation a few times...it really makes the game feel very repetitive.


As for the iPad version, like nearly all iPad boardgames, the AI is terrible and only really good for learning the rules. If you aren't playing against yourself (trying to get higher scores each time), I think it would definitely get boring quickly.

As for the strategy complaint, I did address this in the review. Personally this is a pro for me, but I understand different people like different things and it's a con for others:

"Careful, tight balance. This is not a game about specialization or about mutual exclusive paths to victory. This is a game about using your limited number of actions as efficiently as possible. You have one goal, to make money, and more often than not that means getting ships, getting valuable goods, and shipping them! As such it's not a game of devising an overarching strategy (the game provides that to you); instead it's about constantly reevaluating fluctuating markets, knowing when it's too risky not to take something, knowing when your opponent is being too greedy and leaving something to accumulate that they really need, knowing when it's okay to take a loan if it means being able to build that truly critical building a turn early, and knowing when it's best to wait and make sure everyone gets fed this round."

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by Salimo

gameon3948 wrote:

Salimo wrote:

ChrB wrote:

Thanks for the review. I agree that it's a great game!

My only concern is the (strategic) replayability; yes, there is definitely some variety, but most games tend to be about getting a lot of coke and steel and ship those goods. It's hard to win without doing that, at least that's my experience after playing Le Havre ~20 times.

Also, I don't like that getting a loan (or several) is not that bad; I think the penalty for getting those should be increased.


Both of these issues are highlighted when one plays the iPad implementation a few times...it really makes the game feel very repetitive.


As for the iPad version, like nearly all iPad boardgames, the AI is terrible and only really good for learning the rules. If you aren't playing against yourself (trying to get higher scores each time), I think it would definitely get boring quickly.


My plays were against a human opponent.

Reply: Le Havre:: Reviews:: Re: Le Havre: A tightly balanced, highly replayable masterpiece

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by doctoryes0

DavidT wrote:

doctoryes0 wrote:



What's more, I've heard that when players get to a certain level with Agricola they don't even play out the game, just draft the cards and discuss how the game theoretically would have gone.



This can't possibly be true. Can it?


I'm afraid so. Granted, you have to have seen every card come out several times to be able to read opening hands that well - which takes probably a couple hundred sessions - so it isn't something to worry about in terms of replayability.

My problem with Agricola is simply that it completely lacks the slow build of LH. You're hit t1 with a couple dozen possible options, which makes for a pretty unpleasant first game.

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: Finally picked up a copy and.... :(

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by spiralsoap

Warped tiles. The whole bundle is warped. So so sad am I. Anyone else experience this? Know if Z-Man honors returns?

Thanks,
Joe

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Finally picked up a copy and.... :(

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by snoozefest

No problems with my copy, which is several years old now. Why not return it where you bought it?

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Finally picked up a copy and.... :(

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by klbush

If you mean the flimsy game boards, yes, every game I've seen (3) has been warped. If you mean the goods chits and/or the building cards then that is new to me. I wouldn't expect to be able to return due to slightly bowed game boards like mine but your seller could surprise you and relent.

I don't know if some pressure from heavy books would straighten them or not, but you might give that a try. I'd put waxed paper between the books and the boards to keep the ink from transferring.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Finally picked up a copy and.... :(

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by thor0298

Heavy books should do the trick. I live in Minnesota and the weather changes caused massive warping. I never had it happen on my Le Havre but brewccrafters was really bad
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