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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ravenskana

Thanks, Grzegorz. I'm not sure where I got the idea I could place cards anywhere in the stack, but I stand (actually, sit) corrected.

I still see a problem with how it is described; your first sentence "You place the two cards you've got back in any order." would make more sense as "You place the two cards you've got back on the top of the stack in any order."

I'll confess that I may have a weird interpretation; given that there's not a ton of threads here asking for clarification I suspect the problem is more with me than the rules.

Anyway, I appreciate knowing the correct ruling!

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ldsdbomber

given how the marketplace and special buildings stacks work, would it *really* be a disaster if you decided to put them back in any order within the 6 cards rather than an AB/BA flip flop (which is how we play by the way). I mean, actually it sounds more fun, actually, might give that one a go. I've often thought it would also be cool if the special building stack was bigger, and one of the buildings (maybe even the marketplace) let you REMOVE a card if you noticed it would be there when an opponent has first dibs on it and it could give them a big advantage, or maybe have a new card something like "Toen Planner" to do that, maybe reorder some of the cards in the building stacks too (observing the numeric ordering)

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: le havre solo play 550 points

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by civ417

what I have to do to achive 550 points in le havre solo play with coal trader haulage firm and wind farm

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by Ponton

It's no fun playing towards a card that another player may bury in the stack or even remove from it. If you want to play like this, do it, it's your game, but you could as well remove the special buildings entirely as you have destroyed their purpose. They are there to provide other strategies than the usual "ship coke and steel" pattern. If you allow someone to effectively remove any card that may help another strategy, why add those cards at all? To piss another player off as you remove the building they have been preparing for rounds ago?

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ldsdbomber

no its nothing like that at all, noone would be harmed in this experiment, just a simple variant, it's all good. nothing to see here. I've played the game close to 100 times, I get why it is like it is, but I'm never shy to consider whatif scenarios with games and rules. I'm a fully fledged member of Cult of the You get to decide whats fun for you, and no one else gets to tell you why you're wrong about that :)

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: le havre solo play 550 points

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ravenskana

Well, my thoughts on it were that some special building is going to come up anyway. Moving A and B to the bottom of the stack is a risk, as the C card that does come up could benefit anyone and you didn't get a chance to see it.

Also, the A and B cards aren't out of the game. Nothing stops someone else from using Marketplace to keep dumping the new A and B cards to the bottom to get the original card you want to the top.

It seems like the only way it can really mess you up as described is if after seeing A and B and putting them on top of the stack in any order, you start making plans towards both of those, then another player moves them right before they get built. And again, while some of the work the first player did might be considered wasted, the second player may not have gotten any real advantage, so who knows.

I've also found Marketplace to be fairly strong just in the goods that it gave with the knowledge and manipulation of the cards a large bonus. One could argue this wrong way of playing might depower Marketplace slightly, so if that's a goal, then it wouldn't hurt to try it for a game I suppose.

It also occurs to me if one wanted to play the way I was mistakingly playing, play with the exact number of cards in the deck that will be used in the game. That way, moving to the bottom of the stack will always delay the card rather than remove it from the game (given no additional player interaction with the stack).

Finally, on a personal note, almost all of my games have been with my family, and in particular, I usually play three player games with my two boys. A houserule we have is that I deal each of my two boys a number of special cards in the beginning of the game, and they each draft three cards to place in the deck. The six cards are then scrambled and put out. This way, they each know half the deck, but not the initial order, and I don't see any cards so I have no knowledge until I use the marketplace. It could be that under this configuration my mistaken play of moving cards all around the deck was less problematic, well, except when they did it to me but that's a handicap I was happy to play under.

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by Ponton

I didn't read all of your post, only replying to the first part:

You're right, with a little work, you can get any card back on top if it was at the bottom of the stack - with a simple, but yet detrimental difference for the player forming a strategy around such a card:

As it is now, the player wanting to harm another one by dumping "his" building needs to do work himself, wasting (maybe) precious actions to prevent a building from showing up. Whenever he harms the other player, the latter can visit the Marketplace himself and "correct" the harm. So, you can only harm another player if you visit the Marketplace just before the end of the round that is right before a special building gets built (or otherwise, you need to block the Marketplace for long enough). This is always work for the offender.

Now, with the variant of dumping buildings to the bottom of the stack, the offender needs only one action to destroy the plans of another player. This other player would need a lot more actions to get the building up again - and then the offender can strike him hard again. All the strategy basing special buildings would lose their purpose. It simply wouldn't be worth it playing towards them. In the end, it comes down to who gets more lucky and whose strategy fits the randomly built special building the most.

With the variant of removing special buildings entirely, it becomes even worse.


Of course, may everyone play as he likes, I'm just posting to prevent new players without any experience of trying this out without really understanding what's behind it. People tend to do stupid stuff like this and then blame the game. I do not want to convince anyone of you to not do this. Do it if you like. It would be no fun for me and completely against the purpose of special buildings. To each his own. ;)



Edit: now read the rest of your post

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: le havre solo play 550 points

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ldsdbomber

yeah, I knew you had noble intent Ponton! Actually I didnt go far enough, might indeed be interesting to have you be able to shuffle the entire stack with the marketplace just for fun sometime!

One variant we sometimes play is adding a Grand Hameau card in the rounds where no building is built just to throw a few more combos in the mix.

But I agree that theres plenty enough game with the standard rules to keep anyone busy for quite some time!

Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Returning Special Buildings to the pile after a Marketplace action

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by ravenskana

I appreciate the further thoughts on the matter, Grzegorz, even though I had figured those consequences out. And I personally will end up playing by the proper rule myself.

I was just mostly musing on the other side of the issue just to get the ideas out of my head I suppose. Le Havre is nice in that it can accommodate some wacky variants if desired.

I concur on your points about new players. Play by the rules, kids! Don't try this at home!

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: iOS final action franc bug

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by viol8r

In the iOS version it doesn't let you take the francs offer as your final play?!? This a bug or a game rule?

One other the ships when you first build them appear a bit buggy visually. Will this be addressed in next update?

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by dklx3

Was wondering how people are finding the AI. Here are scores in a recent game I played. What are others seeing. Based on this one game, looks like the AI is deficient in Shipping strategy. Will see if that becomes a trend or a one-game aberration.


4 Player game - 3 AIs ar 2nd hardest level
Player AI 1 AI 2 AI 3
TOTAL 204 68 117 104
Francs 115 0 4 8
Buildings 46 62 100 86
Bonus 3 0 7 0
Ships 40 6 6 10
Loans 0 0 0 0

Sorry for formatting.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by MDJD

As far as I can tell, the AI doesn't use the shipping strategy at all. I've played against the AI with 3-4 total players >20 times now, and have never lost simply because the AI never challanges my shipping strategy, which I invariably use against it.

The AI seems very risk averse...generally avoiding taking out loans, even when it's clearly appropriate to do so.

I love the game, but am unimpressed with the AI.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by asmiles

The AI is not very good. They're too focused on the short and lack any real long term planning. They're fine for learning the game, but won't provide any real challenge for experienced players.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by ianoble

Fixed it for you:

4 Player game - 3 AIs ar 2nd hardest level
Player AI 1 AI 2 AI 3
TOTAL 204 68 117 104
Francs 115 0 4 8
Buildings 46 62 100 86
Bonus 3 0 7 0
Ships 40 6 6 10
Loans 0 0 0 0

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by Michael Poplawski

As Ian illustrates, when posting simple data tables on BGG, formatting can be done quite nicely with the "C" (for "Code") formatting button, which is found between the SP and URL buttons. I used the Code formatting feature to annoying effect here.

I'll echo the comments about the Le Havre iOS AI. I learned the game via the App, and I'll admit I'm not great at the game, but I nearly always beat the AI players. The iOS game is great for learning the game's mechanics and learning about all the buildings, but it looks like I have to find someone now to play online with me, or in the real world.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Scores on iOS - brass tacks

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by dcorban

The AI is terrible. They do nothing but build. I usually have double the score of the second place AI, without much effort.

Reply: Le Havre:: News:: Re: Once more with feeling: Looking for ideas for a new set of standard buildings

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by tumorous

Ponton wrote:

Do not post any new ideas here, please. This discussion has moved to the Lookout forums. And no, we haven't forgotten about it. It's just not top priority ATM.

So, a year and a half later, is there any status update available? Is the new set of standard buildings still at low priority?

It doesn't look like there has been much activity on the Lookout forums.
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