Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 14, 2013, 5:45 pm

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by catmando

Interesting that your experience with AIs has seemed to mitigate against loans. My AI opponents borrow pretty shamelessly, sometimes. And you think coke is the only valuable good? I was into Leather, then Steel, but I've won shipping cattle and bread. BTW, how is shipping unthematic in a game about shipping, anyway?

As far as bad loaning: Philip II of Spain took loans that he paid off at up 250%, defaulted on pensions, confiscated gold from private parties, declared bankruptcy and got out of it by swapping low interest bonds for his debts, and bankers Still lined up to give him more money.

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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 14, 2013, 6:01 pm

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by Anarchosyn

catmando wrote:

Interesting that your experience with AIs has seemed to mitigate against loans. My AI opponents borrow pretty shamelessly, sometimes. And you think coke is the only valuable good? I was into Leather, then Steel, but I've won shipping cattle and bread. BTW, how is shipping unthematic in a game about shipping, anyway?

... buuuuut, did you win against somebody who was exploring the coke strategy?

I've honestly never seen anybody try a leather strategy. I'd imagine that could only hope to work against utterly new players.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 14, 2013, 6:16 pm

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by kittenhoarder

Anarchosyn wrote:

I can't help you with strategy, but you might want to take a look at another one of Rosenburg's designs: Ora et Labora.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it. Before trying Le Havre, I didn't think I was a fan or Rosenberg--Agricola wasn't too fun for me, and Gates of Loyang was just sort of "meh." This game, though, gives me a great thematic feel supported by lots of interesting variety.

catmando wrote:

Interesting that your experience with AIs has seemed to mitigate against loans. My AI opponents borrow pretty shamelessly, sometimes. ... BTW, how is shipping unthematic in a game about shipping, anyway?

Oh, I didn't find the shipping unthematic, and I don't mind that it is a good way to earn points late in the game. It just bothered me that a consistent winning strategy seemed to involve using the same buildings over and over and over again and piling up a ton of early debt. That part seemed unthematic...but the more I play and the more I think about it, the more thematic the game feels. It's fridge brilliance.

I've only played against easy AIs so far. They borrow a lot, for sure, but my no-loan strategy tended to beat them. Perhaps I would have beat them by even more if I had taken some loans myself.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 14, 2013, 6:17 pm

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by catmando

Anarchosyn wrote:

catmando wrote:

Interesting that your experience with AIs has seemed to mitigate against loans. My AI opponents borrow pretty shamelessly, sometimes. And you think coke is the only valuable good? I was into Leather, then Steel, but I've won shipping cattle and bread. BTW, how is shipping unthematic in a game about shipping, anyway?

... buuuuut, did you win against somebody who was exploring the coke strategy?

I've honestly never seen anybody try a leather strategy. I'd imagine that could only hope to work against utterly new players.

Only played the AIs so far. They are pretty much into building things. Which gives me room, sometimes, to ship out lots of 'low value' goods.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 14, 2013, 10:28 pm

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by taragalinas

kittenhoarder wrote:

So if I get you properly, you will always spend a great deal of time getting coal and building ships to prepare for that big payoff at the end, but there will always be turns in which you can't do either because the buildings are blocked...what you do during those turns, assuming both players know the value of shipping coke, is what will decide the game. It's hard to win the game by giving the other player free rein of those buildings. Is that about right?

If so, I think I can actually live with that. ;)

Yes. That is exactly my point. :thumbsup:

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 15, 2013, 1:37 am

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by littleboy

just try changing the interest on loans to be 1 coin per loan. seems pretty obvious, but just try stuff yourself based on how you and your wife like it, dont let someone else tell you what you can or cant do

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 16, 2013, 12:33 pm

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by grant5

kittenhoarder wrote:

So if I get you properly, you will always spend a great deal of time getting coal and building ships to prepare for that big payoff at the end, but there will always be turns in which you can't do either because the buildings are blocked...what you do during those turns, assuming both players know the value of shipping coke, is what will decide the game. It's hard to win the game by giving the other player free rein of those buildings. Is that about right?

If so, I think I can actually live with that. ;)

I think you've got the gist of it now.

I'd also like to second the suggestion to try Ora et Labora. Based on what you've said about what you like and don't like about LH I think you'd really like Ora.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 18, 2013, 1:42 am

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by newbiebgg

I played this house rule(suggested by UWE)

"For an X player game, if you have X loans or more, you must pay 2 francs for interest."
It will weaken pure Coke shipping strategy a little bit in 2 player game.
Although 2 francs interest is not that high, sometimes player cannot get enough entry fee for important buildings if they ignore food production totally.

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Thread: Le Havre:: Variants:: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 18, 2013, 9:39 pm

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by petercox

Hi all,

So I have the Grand Hameaux, plus the Essen expansion cards plus base game.

Does it make sense to cull the special buildings deck?

If so, what advice would you give of what to cut?

Thanks in advance!
Peter

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 18, 2013, 9:50 pm

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by Anarchosyn

Why cut anything?

Sure, some buildings aren't amazing, but it's the variety that alters the landscape of play so unexpectedly.

Anyhoo, I'd caution against it. Just because you or I think a building is worthless doesn't mean it is. Keeping it in play might just allow somebody to showcase its brilliance. Conversely, I wouldn't say any of the buildings are so overpowered as to be game breaking.

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 18, 2013, 10:25 pm

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by petercox

Thanks for the input!

Why cut anything?

Two reasons:

1) I hear a lot of comments that many of the buildings are a bit pointless. But you make a good point about 'discovering' strategies around them.

2) I hear that the Grand Hameaux buildings make the leather shipping option a bit more viable: so I worry if the special buildings deck is over loaded those special buildings concerned with making leather better don't come up much, then leather shipping remains under powered.

Thanks!

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 1:22 am

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by taragalinas

Keep 'em all! The "not so useful ones" ones are still very cute and entertaining. I feel like a winner everytime I visit one of them. :D

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 2:17 am

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by STIG240

Try doing what I do if you fancy a bit of variety- during the game set-up, separate the special buildings into 3 piles according to their set (base game, GH, promos) and shuffle each one.

Then, draw as many as you want from each pile up to the normal amount of 6 (usually 2 from each for me), shuffle and there you go, a nice balance of everything!:)

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 2:20 am

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by petercox

Yeah, I was thinking something similar - probably just shuffling the Essen cards into the main deck and having 4 from the main deck and two from Hameaux making up the six?

Or maybe half and half?

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 6:54 am

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by davypi

petercox wrote:

1) I hear a lot of comments that many of the buildings are a bit pointless. But you make a good point about 'discovering' strategies around them.

As somebody who has actually made a point to ensure I've played every special building at least once (except Essen promos), I can honestly say that none of them are pointless. However, many of them are useless if they come out too late in the game. For example, the coal trader can be great if it comes out early or even mid-game and you plan for it (slaughter four cows and convert the meat into 18 energy!); if its the last special to come out, the colliery is far more efficient.

If you've not seen Grzegorz's building FAQ, you should read it as it gives hints on how to leverage the buildings.

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/45371/item

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Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 8:05 am

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by ravenskana

One thing I've done is draft cards into the special building deck. I often play with my two boys. I'll deal them like 10 cards each randomly, then let each one select three cards each. I then mix those up to make the deck. That gives each of them partial information on what could come up while I have none, which is a small little advantage I give to them.

Since two and three player games are what I commonly play, even when playing with other adults that makes for good divisions in the six card deck. For four or five players, I'd suggest letting each one select one card from a hand of five, then add extra cards at random.

If you often play with the same group, one could keep a little checklist and mark which cards get played, then add in a rule that the card selection can't include cards already played in a previous game, if one wants to make sure that all cards will be seen eventually and that people don't just always choose the same thing.

Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: Worth culling the special buildings deck?

November 19, 2013, 8:51 am

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by davypi

ravenskana wrote:

One thing I've done is draft cards into the special building deck.

I'll vouch for this variant, although we usually do draw four keep two for each player. I've done it with my group a few times and its kind of nice because you can weed out some of the less favorable cards.

Another good variant is to simply put a special building into play as a start building. It give you an alternate goal to work towards from the beginning. It gives everybody a peice of information, not just the last guy to use the marketplace. More specials in the game opens up more options to the players.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 21, 2013, 11:24 am

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by cwb1014

I think Le Havre plays best at a 3 player game. It's harder to set yourself on a single minded strategy when more players are involved. One player can set his guy on the Cokery and then take some resources for a turn or two blocking the other two players out. And it may in fact be their best play, rather than just an intentional block move. This is harder to achieve in a two player game.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: house rules to disincentivize loans/shipping?

November 21, 2013, 3:18 pm

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by kittenhoarder

littleboy wrote:

just try changing the interest on loans to be 1 coin per loan. seems pretty obvious, but just try stuff yourself based on how you and your wife like it, dont let someone else tell you what you can or cant do

Or (a variation of the variant below) 1 coin per loan divided by the number of players. So 1 per loan for solo, 1 per 2 loans for 2-player, etc. If I do impose a stiffer penalty on loans, this is what I'll plan to do.

Thread: Le Havre:: Rules:: Does taking goods from an Offer space remove you from a building you are in?

November 23, 2013, 5:46 am

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by Konrad von Richtmark

What it says in the title. Can you theoretically stay indefinitely inside a building and blocking others from using it by simply choosing to take goods from Offer spaces rather than taking other building actions?