by sfox
It isn't possible to win against a competent opponent without taking loans. The cost to avoid loans early in the game is far higher than the cost to pay them off late game even when accounting for the interest. Ignoring food and instead picking up resources to build buildings is inherently more efficient. Food is worth a tiny bit over 1 point each early game whereas wood/clay/coal/etc is worth somewhere between 1.5 to 4 points for each one you pick up. That isn't even counting the fact that many buildings have a food cost to use if you don't own them, so building a building that you use once or a more times also saves you food (points) and when others use it you get food from them (even better, - points from them and + points for you).Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by sfox
davypi wrote:
My usual "no loan" wins involve building and selling the sawmill for money and then hitting the joinery. With the resulting cash, you can outright purchase a wooden boat within about seven actions and keep your upkeep under control.
Actually I agree that getting a boat via this method is competitive and could possibly beat a well executed 'ignore food' strategy, but I've never lost to it (in 3 player games, I don't play 2/4/5 player). I'd say it has been used against me around 5 or 6 times, but maybe I just have always managed to out play my opponents enough in the rest of the game to make up for the advantage they gain from doing it.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by Thunkd
sfox wrote:
It isn't possible to win against a competent opponent without taking loans.
That is untrue.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by Deep Silver
Thunkd wrote:
gmpearce wrote:
If she seriously wants to take as few loans as possible, then she should be aiming at building ships, with her intended payoff being shipping line late in the game.
The thing about coming into a game with a plan already in place is that you are ignoring what is going on in the game. Depending on turn order, which things come out in which order, what your opponents have taken, what they have left you with, etc. the plan you came in with isn't necessarily the best plan for the situation. You should look at what is going on and choose the best plan. Don't choose a plan and try to force the situation to fit what you want to do.
"No plan survives contact with the enemy"
"Strategy is a system of expedients"
Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, German Field Marshal (1800 - 1891)
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by jhagen1908
I've had a couple 3-player long games with the original loan rules where I scored nearly 300 (294, 289) and won against strong competition by going no-loan.What they had in common:
* I picked up 5 fish in round 1, nearly enough to meet the first two rounds' food needs by itself.
* I bought/built a wooden ship by round 3.
* The building distribution was abnormal - for example, in one of the two games the Grocery Market came out extremely early, allowing for much more efficient food gathering than usual.
I'd say a zero-loan approach is viable occasionally in 3-player but not always.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by viddy
There's a big difference between loans in Le Havre and begging cards in Agricola: Loans are tools that can be used to make progress, whereas begging cards are penalties for not having already made progress.Just like in real life, a loan is good to take out if it will get you ahead in the long run, which a loan in Le Havre will almost always do. It's like a student loan that allows a student graduate quickly, which gives them a higher paying job faster. Spending eight years in school while working part time at the Burger Bar (just to avoid taking out loans) will net you less money in the long run than taking those loans out, finishing school in four years, and using the money made with a higher paying job to pay off the loans.
Can you win without taking one out? Well, yes, but it's like asking if you can win a game of Chess without moving your knights. Sure, it's possible, but you'd only be limiting yourself by trying it.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by Thunkd
viddy wrote:
Just like in real life, a loan is good to take out if it will get you ahead in the long run, which a loan in Le Havre will almost always do.
And just like in real life you're probably paying more back than you get. So if you make it back enough to offset the extra you pay then it works. The great thing about loans is that they give you an early advantage. But it often comes at the cost of a franc a turn for a large part of the game. If you can manage to avoid a loan and still get a food/money engine going quickly then you are forgoing the early advantage but get the benefit of not having to pay that franc through the game. I'm not saying it's always possible or that it always makes sense. Just that it can and does in certain situations.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by mjacobsca
My game group seemed convinced loans were the only way to win the game, and hence soured on it. I agree winning without loans is possible, but it really depends on how the cards come out, what special buildings there are, and what other players are doing. That's why I like the game. It plays a little different every time, especially with the expansion. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to see it make it to the table again, since our only group copy was put up for trade.The one big risk about the no-loan approach is that if you aren't careful and do happen to end up taking one early to mid-game, you have basically wasted your advantage since you'll be paying the same interest as everyone else for the rest of the game. If you take one, you might as well take four, otherwise you are overpaying on the interest rate since the rate "goes down" the more you take.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Hierarchy to ship purchases?
by testcranker
Maybe there is some confusion about the spread of cost to buy and point value for victory purposes ?Other than that, there are no options per se, as others have pointed out. You can only buy or build the top ship in the stack.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Rules:: Re: Ship building
by testcranker
It's an interesting question but when I play, we always interpret "build" to exclude ship construction.I do get into some arguements over this interpretation, but I usually lay the ground rules immediately when the special building is turned up so nobody feels misled after they buy it.
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Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: board game vs ios version
by testcranker
DrumPhil wrote:
riastradh wrote:
Is there not a red X to the left of the game name that should allow you to delete existing games?
Yes, there are red Xs, but nothing happens when I tap them.
Sometimes it takes a while for the changes to register. It's a very sluggish part of the game.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by testcranker
Seriously, I'll take an opponent who refuses loans over one who adapts as necessary every time. Loans are game elements, to be used and optimized like any other game element.If you block yourself off from them, you are not taking full advanatage of what's available.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?
by testcranker
Just another thought, many times I will buy a bulding in the queue which is in front of another building that I want to build, so I can clear the way and build it.It is possible in this way to clear 3 buildings off the queue, two you want to build and one which was "blocking" you in front of them.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by daveshaerf
Thanks for all the responses!Yeah, I am mostly in agreement with the ethos of being malleable, strategically speaking. Loan cards are a key component of the game, why deprive yourself of them when a key building needs to be made, or whatever.
Try telling all of this to my stubborn GF... this is another discussion all together.
We shall see as we try the full game if she is able to use the extra cards to create a scenario where she is able to win.
I certainly hope so.. cause I love the game and would like to keep playing it!
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by Evilest Dave
Deep Silver wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
gmpearce wrote:
If she seriously wants to take as few loans as possible, then she should be aiming at building ships, with her intended payoff being shipping line late in the game.
The thing about coming into a game with a plan already in place is that you are ignoring what is going on in the game. Depending on turn order, which things come out in which order, what your opponents have taken, what they have left you with, etc. the plan you came in with isn't necessarily the best plan for the situation. You should look at what is going on and choose the best plan. Don't choose a plan and try to force the situation to fit what you want to do.
"No plan survives contact with the enemy"
"Strategy is a system of expedients"
Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, German Field Marshal (1800 - 1891)
Actually, I tend to think of LH loans in wargaming terms: they're the reserves. We commit them when we need to, but we don't throw them into battle willy-nilly.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by jauggy
I don't know about 2P but I know its possible in 3P. With a no-loans strat you want a wooden ship as fast as possible as it is quite efficient. Typically it will be bought because wharf comes out too late. Don't be afraid to sell buildings because an early ship will give you a lot over the entire game. Also, it helps if the other two players are ignoring feeding so you can just take fish when its really high (around 10).In a recent 3P game the winning player had no loans but was the first to get wooden ship. Scores were as follows:
P1: 284 (no loans player),
P2: 250,
P3: 261
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by LSMB
Of course you can win without loans....but not using loans means you will just be giving up an important tool in the game that your opponents will be using.Mention to your GF how forgiving the loans are - it is the same interest penalty each round no matter how many loans you take. Perhaps this will convince her that this is not Agricola :)
The best teacher here will be experience. Just keep playing. She will figure it out.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by Thunkd
LSMB wrote:
Of course you can win without loans....but not using loans means you will just be giving up an important tool in the game that your opponents will be using.
But every turn you'll be paying a franc that she won't. That's basically free money for her if she can avoid loans. Loans are a tool that has a cost. A lot of the time it's worth the cost, but don't ignore that it has one.
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Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: Winning without loans?
by LSMB
Thunkd wrote:
LSMB wrote:
Of course you can win without loans....but not using loans means you will just be giving up an important tool in the game that your opponents will be using.
But every turn you'll be paying a franc that she won't. That's basically free money for her if she can avoid loans. Loans are a tool that has a cost. A lot of the time it's worth the cost, but don't ignore that it has one.
Of course, I didn't say nor imply it doesn't have a cost.
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New Video for Le Havre
by TomVasel
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