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Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does Le Havre need a Scoring Tracker?

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by testcranker

As others have already pointed out, it's not a bad idea but it could be very misleading.

The thing about Le Havre in turn based scoring is the loan mechanic and the notion that you can dig a very deep hole but it will simply be an investment that will pay off in large multiples at a later time in the game.

In fact i would say, that if you are not running a low turn score in the midgame, you are not going to win. But that is only 1 persons opinion.

The iOS game does do this and the AI seems to seek optimal play for each turn, but of course it has no overall strategic thinking capacity. So it's a good comparison of playstyles.


Reply: Le Havre:: Variants:: Re: More Special Buildings

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by archipel

We tried the variant created by Ponton in a two player game last week.

We really liked it. I could even say that it was the first time that we really used specials buildings in our games and they had a impact in our strategies.

Of course we are not experts at Le Havre (we have played 23 games) but for us the interest was that we were able to plan our actions during the firsts turns in such a way that permitted us to take advantage of the specials buildings we had in hand at the start of the game.

It also permitted us to see that those specials buildings, when used, modify the game and add variability in the game.

So it will be a variant that we will use systematically in our 2 player games.

:)

Thread: Le Havre:: Strategy:: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Padish

(Topic edited to build->buy)

Hi,

Many buildings are worth just a few points (and therefore cheap to buy) compared to the resources it takes to build them. However, the building prices in the first half of the game are around 10 francs, and wooden ships cost 14, so I'm wondering how to get this amount of money. I'm thinking about a 3/4-player game.

The first problem is that unless taking fish or some else early food (which is often considered a sub-optimal play unless the amount of food is quite large), much of the stored money gets always burned in the feeding phase. So should I time the money-producing actions so that I can use the money before the end of round?

Then, how to actually get money? I know building stuff and selling them for half the price is one way, but it just seems such a waste. The combined effect of lost points (half the building price) and losing a building that might have generated some income or spared yourself from paying entry fees does seem unfortunate, especially if selling more than one building. I can see it being worthwhile when buying a ship, but is it really worth it to sell two buildings to finance buying one slightly better building?

I guess the Joinery is something that has to be kept in mind, but it alone is seldom enough to finance a building. Smokehouse can be used to generate some early money, but it only gives 3 francs. How about the franc offer? In the first 5-7 rounds, say, how many francs are generally an auto-grab in a 3/4-player game? It's pointless to pick even 7 francs if all you're doing with it is feeding your people, so I'm guessing you better buy something with the francs you pick before the end of round.

Shipping line and Cokery are late-game buildings, so how do people really finance stuff like Iron Ships (buying, not building)? Is it mostly with the help of the special buildings that often generate francs?

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to build buildings and ships?

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by Thunkd

Buildings are a wash in terms of victory points if you buy them (as money = vp), so you're only buying them for bonus symbols which can increase the effects of other buildings, or to get the rents when other people use them. Or to be able to sell it at the right time so that you can guarantee you'll be able to use it even if it is already occupied.

In general I would only worry about it if it's a really cool building (which typically make more sense to build than buy) or if I happen to be set up for it. I wouldn't devote time in the early game towards going out of my way trying to buy buildings... That's taking too much effort away from more important things you should be doing.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Flyboy Connor

How to get money?

- Take the money pile.
- Use a building that besides products also gives some money.

And that's more or less it in the early game stages.

Money is really scarce. Using it instead of food is generally not a good idea. Buying buildings instead of building them neither is a good idea, unless you have more money than you need for paying building fees. But constructing a building with resources gives victory points, while buying it does not (though it can be a valid tactical choice for other reasons).

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by ldsdbomber

build some of the buildings that require only few resources but are worth lots, the sawmill being a good example. Sell it for half its value. Time this with manipulating the loans or taking a cash pile so you get enough to buy a wooden ship directly for example. I would rarely buy buildings except in circumstances like at the end to get more bonus points, or to control ownership or to be able to use the building twice in a row (buy... use, sell, use again)
7 francs early is a great offer, grab it, especially if youve gamed the loans so you already have 2 or 3 coins in hand, add that to a sale of a building and you have a big wodge

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Shane Beck

The only buildings I'd consider worth buying are the marketplace (bound to be used often and saves food / money owning it) and the two building firms with huts on them to use in conjunction with the marketplace. I have known players to buy the wharf for 14 francs simply to have first use of it instead of people jumping in after it is built.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Padish

I actually rarely buy any buildings, but I've gotten a feel from these forums that it's pretty standard to constantly scout for buildings to buy from the offers. That's why I made this thread, because I don't understand how you can have that much extra money before shipping anything.

And in fact there are a few buildings which are quite expensive to build compared to the VPs they give. Hardware store takes 3 wood and 1 clay and is only an 8 VP building. I'd rather buy it if I could because those resources can be used more profitably. Smokehouse is 2 wood + 1 clay for only 6 points. Shipping line is a whopping 2 wood 3 brick compared to 10 francs.

I understand that buying a building does not net any VPs, but one should also be careful about how to convert the raw materials to points. Joinery versus Charcoal kiln for example: both are 8 VP buildings with the same symbol, but the other costs 3 wood and the other just 1 clay. Building a Wharf costs half an iron ship's iron and 40 % the wood it takes to build a wooden ship, so building it delays your ship building quite much (not to mention you are not going to use it soon yourself).

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by ravenskana

ldsdbomber wrote:

build some of the buildings that require only few resources but are worth lots, the sawmill being a good example. Sell it for half its value.


In the really early game, this is going to be the best option. Buildings that make money will have a hard time making enough money to be useful, and if other players are on their toes, the cash offer will also be too low to be useful.

The nice thing about selling a building to buy another is you do it right as you need the money, so there's no chance that the money will get eaten up by food demands at the end of the round. This can happen when you want to take the cash offer now as it will likely go away before the turn comes back to you, but the building you want to buy is buried behind another building.

Of course, one has to determine whether the selling of one building and losing half the VP for it is worth it to get the new building, but there are certainly cases where I would do so without hesitation.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Thunkd

Padish wrote:

Hardware store takes 3 wood and 1 clay and is only an 8 VP building. I'd rather buy it if I could because those resources can be used more profitably. Smokehouse is 2 wood + 1 clay for only 6 points.

Why do you need to own this building? Is there some reason that you need it? You seem to be in the mindset that owning buildings is good regardless of anything else. Many times it's better to have money which is equivalent in terms of vp's but more flexible in that it let's you use other people's buildings.


Padish wrote:

Shipping line is a whopping 2 wood 3 brick compared to 10 francs.

The shipping line is virtually guaranteed to be used by every other player, and by yourself. That's several rent fees and saving yourself the fee, that you will get and at two food (or money if you are lucky) each time. Some other buildings may not be used at all. The hardware store for example could be but may very well not be, and only costs a single food if they do. Also, the shipping line may be worth having simply to insure that you can ship when you need to. Being at the end of the game and trying to fit a shipping action in before the last turn of the game and having someone else take it is particularly painful. Taking a 5 point hit (selling for half) to insure you can ship may very well be worth it.

Also, think about what else you are going to be doing with the 2 wood and 3 bricks instead of building the shipping line. Towards the late game you may not be planning to build many more buildings in which case those resources may not be much good to you. You should have a pretty good idea if you are aiming to get other buildings or not, which ones and what resources you need. I might not particularly go out of my way to build the shipping line, but if I was set up and it was available and it fit into the rest of my plans, sure. Especially if the construction building is available and I could do a double build.

The way I play is to try and get some of the really good buildings that have high vp's and/or are incredibly useful like Steel Mill and Cokery. Everything else is a target of opportunity, great if I can swing it, but not something I necessarily plan a strategy around.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by davypi

Padish wrote:

but I've gotten a feel from these forums that it's pretty standard to constantly scout for buildings to buy from the offers.
Where exactly from? As a strategic supplement, maybe, but not as main strategy. As others have alluded to, money is too difficult to come by to be spending on buildings. There are only five early game buildings worth thinking about buying:

Marketplace: If you pick up the two franc starting offer, you can buy this on the first round. Its a popular building and you will get your money back in entry fees.

Either Building Firm: The building icon gives an extra good in the marketplace. The hammer helps with the clay mound and colliery.

Clay Mound / Black Market: These can only be bought. They will usually pay themselves back in entry fees, but rarely more than that. (It really depends on the flow of the game and skill of the players.) I usually only buy these if I need to get to something underneath them.

Any other "pre-brick" purchase I would consider highly questionable. There are certain situations where buying a top card to get its immediate use or being able to dig deeper into the pile to setup a building action can be very good plays. However these are special situations, not strategies to work towards.

[T]here are a few buildings which are quite expensive to build compared to the VPs they give.
As others have alluded to, you are ignoring the income these buildings provide via entry fees. Food is nearly equivocal to victory points for the first half of the game. In that light, The hardware store is really a 12 point building (more if you count the benefit of the hammer symbol it gives you). The smokehouse is only 7 or 8.


Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Zark

Padish wrote:

(Topic edited to build->buy)

Hi,

Many buildings are worth just a few points (and therefore cheap to buy) compared to the resources it takes to build them. However, the building prices in the first half of the game are around 10 francs, and wooden ships cost 14, so I'm wondering how to get this amount of money. I'm thinking about a 3/4-player game.

Take clay, Take wood, Build Sawmill, Use Joinery, buy ship.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Ponton

The Shipping Line is maybe the only building really worth buying (and maybe the Marketplace), maybe some special buildings also. The really only time I buy buildings is towards the end when I have to many coins due to shipping loads of goods.

Buying a wooden ship at the beginning my screw you more than it helps if done for its own sake. You really want to keep the buildings that have entry fees and not sell them to get anything else, especially in the beginning of the game. However, stuff like the Fishery which only costs a wood and a clay (I think) and is worth 5 coins (when sold), but has no entry fee - that's a good deal. If you can sell stuff like this, then go ahead if it leads you to a ship. A ship is a long-time investment. Buildings do not give that much revenue, even if frequently used by others. They are not worth buying early on.

P.S.: Of course, Clay Mound and Black Market are only available when bought, the Building Firms and Construction Firm as well, so I do not count these. All of these are good when in your possession, so go ahead and get them if you can.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by davypi

Zark wrote:

Take clay, Take wood, Build Sawmill, Use Joinery, buy ship.


I took the iron after you took the clay. No Sawmill for you.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by ldsdbomber

Ponton wrote:

The Shipping Line is maybe the only building really worth buying (and maybe the Marketplace), maybe some special buildings also. The really only time I buy buildings is towards the end when I have to many coins due to shipping loads of goods..


What, even in 2P? I find a heavy building strategy is usually very competitive in 2P games.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by testcranker

I almost never build the shipping line any longer. It's too much in terms of resources that can be put to more productive use.

Sometimes I will buy the Ironworks, but that is often to avoid it being taken by an opponent as much as it is a method to avoid building costs. It's often a pacing item for bricks.

The Colliery is a 50/50 deal with me, build or buy.

The marketplace I will almost always buy.

Regarding the OP: Money in the early game is tight, grab the offer, build and sell are about the only ways to aquire cash. Loans as discussed are also a good way to have some cash flow if yo manage them correctly.

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Zark

davypi wrote:

Zark wrote:

Take clay, Take wood, Build Sawmill, Use Joinery, buy ship.


I took the iron after you took the clay. No Sawmill for you.

That is the trouble with working from memory:shake:, building the sawmill and selling it is still a good way to buy an early wooden boat if you can generate the additional cash

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by Ponton

ldsdbomber wrote:

Ponton wrote:

The Shipping Line is maybe the only building really worth buying (and maybe the Marketplace), maybe some special buildings also. The really only time I buy buildings is towards the end when I have to many coins due to shipping loads of goods..


What, even in 2P? I find a heavy building strategy is usually very competitive in 2P games.


I build them, but usually don't buy them, except for the end. Of course, if I have some spare coins left, I'll not left an Ironworks lie there untouched...

Reply: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Re: How to get money to buy buildings and ships?

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by ldsdbomber

Oh, yeah I misread you there :) Of course, the building strategy is using resources to build them, not pay for them with cash! Actually just at the end, snagging up buildings to add (or deny) bonus points that fit in with the bank and town hall etc.

Thread: Le Havre:: General:: Point ranges to aim for for each player count

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by Icelom

I just got le havre and would love to know what a good score is in each of the player counts so i can gauge how i am doing (and let others know as well)

1p?
2p?
3p?
4p?
5p?

I have only played 1x 2p game i scored 400 and my opponent scored 140 or something, this was my very first game i have no idea if 400 is a good score or not feels good compared to his 140 but who knows... I have also played 1x 1p game and scored 248 again i think that's decent after reading the forums (over 200 seemed to be what people said was decent)

Anyways would love to know what a standard good score range is for this game.

Thanks
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