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Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by Si Fei

but to me Le Havre goes by really quickly


The wonders of individual perception of time... :) My games felt even longer than they were. Ratings suggest that most people feel the way you do.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by tumorous

davypi wrote:

I'm actually worried that neither game would be good for you. Looking at the games you've rated in your profile, you've never played a worker placement game. (Keyflower is close to being a worker placement game, but its really an auction mechanic that took a couple of worker placement classes when it was a freshman in college. This is not a diss against the game, I'm just saying I don't think it really serves as a good intro for what worker placement games are like.) Le Havre is on the medium/heavy end of the worker placement spectrum. It also usually runs over an hour per person, so even with two I would expect a 150 minute game which may or may not be a deal breaker for you. Agricola is closer to a middle weight game. I wouldn't really suggest either as anyone's first worker placement game, but I know a lot of non gamer's who have picked up Agricola and seem to enjoy it, so I could easily be wrong there. Anyway, I would actually look at All Creatures Big and Small first. Its a simplified version of Agricola with a short playing time, but I would still classify it as a medium level game. It will give you a good taste of what worker placement is like and also keep you inside the Rosenberg universe. Its also cheaper, so if it turns out you don't like worker placement, it not as big of a risk.

I strongly disagree with the notion that players must be slowly initiated or work their way into Agricola or Le Havre. Worker placement is not such an arcane practice that its mysteries require intense courses of study. The players in question are already familiar with Keyflower... this is not rocket science.

Why should they play lighter, cheaper, worse worker placement games first? What purpose does that serve? If they look at Le Havre and Agricola and think one might be good, they should absolutely go for it. If it turns out that these heavier games aren't for them, they'll figure it out. Dancing around the genre will never answer the question of whether they would enjoy Le Havre.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by sneakypete21

Si Fei wrote:

but to me Le Havre goes by really quickly


The wonders of individual perception of time... :) My games felt even longer than they were. Ratings suggest that most people feel the way you do.


I had the same experience when playing Mage Knight and Xia...oh soooo looooonnnnnggggg!

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by Si Fei

Worker placement is not such an arcane practice that its mysteries require intense courses of study. The players in question are already familiar with Keyflower.


Totally agree. I would even say that Keyflower has relatively complicated worker placement mechanics and that most other worker placement games are easy in comparison (at least the worker placement part.)

But was thatdavypi's point? I understood him as suggesting a more "pure" worker placement game. Whether that makes a difference, I am not sure. I also do not understand why it would be a good idea to get to know categories of game mechanis as opposed to full games.

But Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small is a good game and does a great job of condensing Agricola. Depending on how far jerryboy goes about not liking long games, it could be a good idea.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by Si Fei

I had the same experience when playing Mage Knight


Yes. Mage Knight is long (3 hours or so?) plus it drags. It is also boring. It is long plus it feels long. Listed as "150 minutes" on BGG, which is a lie. Still, some people seem to like it. Strange, but so it it.
I don't know Xia, but now I do not want to find out anymore ^^

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by tumorous

Si Fei wrote:

But Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small is a good game and does a great job of condensing Agricola. Depending on how far jerryboy goes about not liking long games, it could be a good idea.

All Creatures seems to me like a great response for when the OP comes back and says "We tried Agricola, and we like the farm thing and worker placement but it was too long and complicated." :D

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by sneakypete21

Si Fei wrote:

I had the same experience when playing Mage Knight


Yes. Mage Knight is long (3 hours or so?) plus it drags. It is also boring. It is long plus it feels long. Listed as "150 minutes" on BGG, which is a lie. Still, some people seem to like it. Strange, but so it it.
I don't know Xia, but now I do not want to find out anymore ^^


Finally! Somebody agrees with me about Mage Knight. I wrote a blog here about it and got some typically bullish responses.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by grant5

tumorous wrote:

davypi wrote:

I'm actually worried that neither game would be good for you. Looking at the games you've rated in your profile, you've never played a worker placement game. (Keyflower is close to being a worker placement game, but its really an auction mechanic that took a couple of worker placement classes when it was a freshman in college. This is not a diss against the game, I'm just saying I don't think it really serves as a good intro for what worker placement games are like.) Le Havre is on the medium/heavy end of the worker placement spectrum. It also usually runs over an hour per person, so even with two I would expect a 150 minute game which may or may not be a deal breaker for you. Agricola is closer to a middle weight game. I wouldn't really suggest either as anyone's first worker placement game, but I know a lot of non gamer's who have picked up Agricola and seem to enjoy it, so I could easily be wrong there. Anyway, I would actually look at All Creatures Big and Small first. Its a simplified version of Agricola with a short playing time, but I would still classify it as a medium level game. It will give you a good taste of what worker placement is like and also keep you inside the Rosenberg universe. Its also cheaper, so if it turns out you don't like worker placement, it not as big of a risk.

I strongly disagree with the notion that players must be slowly initiated or work their way into Agricola or Le Havre. Worker placement is not such an arcane practice that its mysteries require intense courses of study. The players in question are already familiar with Keyflower... this is not rocket science.

Why should they play lighter, cheaper, worse worker placement games first? What purpose does that serve? If they look at Le Havre and Agricola and think one might be good, they should absolutely go for it. If it turns out that these heavier games aren't for them, they'll figure it out. Dancing around the genre will never answer the question of whether they would enjoy Le Havre.

THIS.

You may or may not like UR's games, but playing other worse games first won't change that. (EDIT: not meaning ACBaS is worse, but some of the suggestions in other posts are, see below)

Side note: don't bother playing Lords of Waterdeep (unless you REALLY love the D&D theme, and even then you should probably just play D&D). It's a simplistic, shallow reflection of what a good worker placement game should be. But then, that's just my opinion. :whistle:

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by jerryboy86

davypi wrote:

I'm actually worried that neither game would be good for you. Looking at the games you've rated in your profile, you've never played a worker placement game. (Keyflower is close to being a worker placement game, but its really an auction mechanic that took a couple of worker placement classes when it was a freshman in college. This is not a diss against the game, I'm just saying I don't think it really serves as a good intro for what worker placement games are like.) Le Havre is on the medium/heavy end of the worker placement spectrum. It also usually runs over an hour per person, so even with two I would expect a 150 minute game which may or may not be a deal breaker for you. Agricola is closer to a middle weight game. I wouldn't really suggest either as anyone's first worker placement game, but I know a lot of non gamer's who have picked up Agricola and seem to enjoy it, so I could easily be wrong there. Anyway, I would actually look at All Creatures Big and Small first. Its a simplified version of Agricola with a short playing time, but I would still classify it as a medium level game. It will give you a good taste of what worker placement is like and also keep you inside the Rosenberg universe. Its also cheaper, so if it turns out you don't like worker placement, it not as big of a risk.

Glass Road might be another one to look at. It has a role selection mechanic to it, but the way you choose your cards dictates whether or not you will be able to copy the action other players take. So it uses the action selection that you've seen in Race for the Galaxy but adds another level of bluffing to it. The way resource management is handled is also a bit more streamlined that what you see in Le Havre. The game is a bit less complex and plays faster, but I would still solidly place it in the medium weight category. I think play time is near 30 min/player, so again, shortish.

If you don't like those suggestions and want to go outside the world of Rosenberg, I wonder if Stone Age or Lord of Waterdeep might be better start for worker placement. I don't know if you do game days at any of your local stores, but its pretty easy to find a copy of Agricola, Stone Age, and/or Waterdeep so I would really suggest trying to get into a game with someone else to see if you like worker placement. Hopefully you talk with one of the people you've played with and they can explain how these all differ from each other and point you in the direction you are looking for.

If the wife likes econony-like games, I might actually suggest either Airlines Europa or Concordia. Airlines is closer to a gateway level game but, like Acquire, controlling the value of airline stocks is part of the gameplay. There is some nice indirect player interaction here as you can manipulate the value of stock you own (or don't own). (If you want something even more basic, Chicago Express is a good game in a similar vein - build railroads to manipulate stock prices. It plays in a shorter time, although opinions about it are rather divisive in my experience.)

Concordia is maybe another good one to push you towards. It uses a role selection mechanic, kind of like Race for the Galaxy, but the action you choose isn't shared. You build colonies and acquire "personalities", which produce resources, which you sell for cash/other resources, which let you build more colonies and personalities, and so on. The personalities you buy somewhat regulate the actions you can take and also dictate how you score points, so you can customize how your economy works by what actions you acquire. Its really more an economic engine building game than an economy manipulation game, but its still probably something in the direction I think you are looking for.


Wow thanks a lot David

I really appreciate this thoughtful reply

Although I haven't made the rating, I've played Lords of Waterdeep on my iPhone extensively and enjoyed it.

It's really funny you mention Airlines of Europe, since it was another game I was looking a lot into for the exact reasons you mentioned. I thought the theme and mechanism would be perfect for my wife, but I heard that it can get a little same-y after several plays and isn't too deep.

I am now a little worried about play time after reading what people said above.. I was expecting about 90 minutes but maybe I was underestimating the length of the game

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by tumorous

jerryboy86 wrote:

I am now a little worried about play time after reading what people said above.. I was expecting about 90 minutes but maybe I was underestimating the length of the game

It's going to depend a lot on how quickly you play. It might take two hours when you first play, but around 90 after that is a reasonable expectation for two players.

That's the long game, of course. The short game clocks in under an hour with experience.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by Si Fei

Don't want to spoil the fun, but I think that 90 minutes is optimistic. Two hours is more like it and that does not necessarily include setup and breakdown.
Anyway, as Matt said, what does it matter? It is a long game and it probably does not make that much of a difference whether it is 90, 100 or 120 minutes. It is a evening length game.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by davypi

tumorous wrote:

Why should they play lighter, cheaper, worse worker placement games first? What purpose does that serve? If they look at Le Havre and Agricola and think one might be good, they should absolutely go for it. If it turns out that these heavier games aren't for them, they'll figure it out. Dancing around the genre will never answer the question of whether they would enjoy Le Havre.


I have to admit I've not priced these games lately, but when I bought them, Le Havre was at a much higher price point that many of the other games. The point of suggesting cheaper games is to, I don't know, save the OP some money?

The other thing is that I actually went into his profile and looked the game he has rated and games he wants to play. While I wouldn't call CoB a gateway game, its probably the most friendly of the Feld games. He has Brugges on his want list, but I don't see him jumping up to try to play Trajan or Luna or Bora Bora. I agree that not everybody has to be slow walked up to heavy games. Le Havre is one of my favorite games and I am always eager to teach it, but I have had inadvertently turned people off to the game by introducing it to them before they were ready for something heavy. Based on the games he has played and what he and his wife say they are looking for, if the OP were over at my house I would be pulling Stone Age or All Creatures off my shelf, but I would probably jump to Le Havre after one game if they were comfortable with either of those.

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by davypi

jerryboy86 wrote:

Although I haven't made the rating, I've played Lords of Waterdeep on my iPhone extensively and enjoyed it.


The follow up here then is, does your wife like it? If she enjoys it as well, I would probably say its OK to jump to Le Havre or Agricola.

It's really funny you mention Airlines of Europe ... I heard that it can get a little same-y after several plays and isn't too deep.


I've played it twice but down own it, so I can't speak to replayability. My only issue with the game is that I don't see the need to own both Ticket to Ride and Airlines. My family will play Ticket to Ride with me - Airlines, probably not.

I am now a little worried about play time after reading what people said above.. I was expecting about 90 minutes but maybe I was underestimating the length of the game


I played this game repetitively with a friend when I first bought it. Two players who know what they are doing can maybe get it done in 90 minutes, but we never did and I think that number is optimistic and requires non-AP prone players. My regular gaming group only has two hours in the shop we play at. We've had to take Le Havre off the table as we usually run 2:15, and even that requires me to get there early so the game is setup and ready to go. The short game can be done in under two hours easy, but the full game, probably not.

You might also consider Caylus. It doesn't have the economic engine your wife is looking for, but its a medium/heavy worker placement game and there are definitely influences of Caylus in Le Havre's gameplay. Caylus is easily done in under two hours and I've played lots of 2P games of Caylus in under 90 min.

OxCon Outing

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by Stuart Burnham

06:15 - an alarm clock rings. On a Saturday?
A man merrily climbs from his warm bed and, after himself fixing a coffee, begins to ponder just what he shall shove into a bag to accompany him on the arduous 15 minute bus trip into Oxford for an entire bloody day of games playing.
Whilst there was no real need to get up so early for an event so close to home it did mean that I could walk the dog, get a couple of loads of washing done and a spot of ironing before fixing a cooked breakfast for the family, and thus neatly bank some "brownie points" before buggering off and leaving Mrs B for the day.
See; gamification - It's just allying age old marital best practice to modern boardgame experience and thus making sure you can pay your upkeep costs / feed your family etc and avoiding a hefty penalty in the grand battleground of a long time relationship!

With son Billy in tow we set off for The Mitre pub on the High Street right in the city centre. Arriving before 10 we found several friendly and welcoming faces in the large function room upstairs and picked a nice table right by the big window that offered a great view of the bustling street below.



No-one that we knew had arrived yet so we settled down for a game of Billy's choice and he plumped for Oh My Goods!. This was his first play of it and he did quite well, with both of us going for an industrial wheat strategy by each building a couple of mills. This meant that my mid game build of a bakery to convert my wheat and coal produced into tasty fresh bread was ultimately the key to the narrow win, as the extra income and the ability to purchase one of the extra workers helped me to just pip him.



Whilst we were halfway through playing esteemed designer, notable BGG attention seeker and good chum Tony Boydell arrived and joined us and analysed the endgame over a coffee.
We then peered into his bag of delights which contained almost exclusively "games designed or current prototypes of Tony Boydell" (plus a copy of
Food Chain Magnate that he hoped someone could teach and a couple of games that I was buying - Pickomino and Buccaneer) for something to try out.
He kindly gave young Bill a copy of Bad Grandmas, who was thrilled to be told that he was the second person in the UK to have a copy (after Tony himself, obviously!).
Of course we opened it up and got playing this quirky little game of conflict between the "Bad Grandmas" who have divided the care home into battle lines of "Knitters" vs "Bakers".

It's a fun 2 player micro game, there are 16 cards divided into "knitters" and "bakers" (plus a couple of grandads as little extra / variant) valued 0-7, each player plays a card and highest card wins; maybe. Each card has a different rule altering effect on the bottom of the card and the winning card defines the rule for the next card played. The winner takes "cookies" equal to the difference between the two cards played. Play next cards with the rule that was on the winning card.

The art and the puns on the cards are great (you might need to understand French to get the most out of them as this is a French published game, English language in rules and summary cards as well though) and the gameplay is pleasingly quick, funny and enjoyable.

Tony mentioned that he'll have copies at the UK Games Expo so get a copy when you pick up Guilds of London (of which he kindly handed me a test copy so the Games for a Laugh crowd are in for a real treat!)
:D :thumbsup:



Next up from Boydell's bulging bag (Snowdonia - Nice Cup of Tea, Danse Macabre (see reports from The Shed) and various others) Billy requested Paperclip Railways which he was quite taken with and is something that I'd never seen, let at alone played so I was was very keen to try out.
Bathed in bright sunshine (Oxford having sidestepped the high winds and torrential rain that other parts were enduring) we strung together said paperclips and built our little towns, factories and suburbs.



It being a design of Tony's there are obviously a variety of ways in which you can "interact" with your opponents and it was something that Billy indulged in with glee, destroying one of only two places that I could build out of with a late game move that almost totally destroyed me. I had fallen into a hare (as in hare & tortoise) gameplan but, as you might expect, I was overtaken by "Tortoise Tony" who had a HUGE number of end game scoring cards. Pleasingly he also overtook Billy for the win (which would become a nice habit for Tony throughout the day!).

There are also many puns, innuendos and gags upon the cards (my favourite below) and if you ever get a chance to play or, good lord, get a copy I'd urge you to do so!



During the play Ben (Ross on Wye Boardgamers Blog) and lovely wife Becky arrived with an enormous, hernia inducing bag of games and we were also joined by an old gaming pal of Tony's, Robin, so a split into two trios was in order.
Tony, Robin and Becky went off to harvest tea and lay track with the excellent, imminent Snowdonia Tea Gardens (another Tony win!) whilst Ben made good on a promise to teach me and Billy how to play Troyes.



This is considered the formative game of the "dice placement" genre and it is excellent to play. I really enjoyed it and am confident that I can now get it to games nights regularly. There appears to be so much variety and opportunity in the game, yet it also is tight and restrictive at the same time. A brilliant game with fantastic art and table prescence as well.
Thanks Ben!

The "quest for sustenance" was now underway and Billy took full advantage of being out with dad rather than mum and managed to wangle a giant burger, fries and milkshake out of me.

Upon returning the Ross-Refugees were busy with Isle of Skye: From Chieftain to King so we sat with recently arrived GFaL pal Terry and chatted whilst we waited for yet another Tony Triumph to play out before splitting into games of Concordia and favourite of Terry, Tony and me Glory to Rome. Billy also joined for his first taste of Chudyk craziness.



He did quite well, despite ignoring Tony's helpful advice (only several hundred plays under his belt - what would he know eh?!) so we might have yet another inductee into the fandom of this marvellously mad game. Terry managed to grab the win courtesy of some bonuses thus ending Tony's Tour of Triumph. For once I managed to construct some buildings of use and was reasonably competitive, stealing a building from Terry with the Prison and cards from all with the Bridge and use of the legionnaire action.
Excellent fun all round.

Tony then said his goodbyes and we resolved to arrange a halfway games session in the Cotswolds sometime soon.

Back at a group of six we then split up into two groups of three for Le Havre (Robin, Becky, Terry) and Saint Petersburg (Myself and "The Flowerpot Men").




I really enjoyed Saint Pete, despite my crucial error in dismantling an important part of my money engine early on - leaving me too short of money to buy more workers in a couple of rounds - it's a game that is right up my street with the engine / tableau building.
Bill was competitive with Ben until the last couple of rounds when Ben pulled away for a convincing victory.

It was now time to pack young Billy off on a bus back to Abingdon and home and after seeing him safety off I returned for a quick game of Mottainai with Ben, again as with GtR managing to construct (craft) a mean building (work) that allowed me to steal a handy end game point scoring card from Ben that also covered some extra sales. Nice! (Or Nasty depending on which side of the table you were!)



Dinner was now the order of the evening and unfortunately it appears that the eatery I had in mind had closed, depriving Ben of the opportunity to eat some "Posh Sausage" (ooo-er!) so a nearby Pizza restaraunt was visited instead.

Suitably nourished we then returned for a 5p game of Becky's favourite, Lancaster.



This was another first play for me and I found it to be yet another excellent game, all bullying each other out of spaces and self interest voting in/ out if laws along with jaunts over the channel for a spot of glory in bashing the French. Thematic in it's mechanics and quick and interactive in practice (even with 5, which is apparently an ideal player count) I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I wasn't competitive though with Becky shoving me out of a couple of key actions early on - lesson learned! Terry and Ben jostled for the win before Terry pulled away at the end courtesy of his large army.



Time to be off then, lest the terrors of a late night "drunk bus" ride home be endured if we stayed for one more game.
There's time enough for more plays Sunday.....

....to be continued...

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Does it make sense to get Le Havre before getting Agricola?

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by patorayado

I have both: Agricola and Le Havre and me, like you, I only play board games with my couple. Both games works fine with two players.

In both cases, you can choose between two play experience: the short and large play, what is perfect depending the time you have.

Le Havre is more complex like Agricola, but just a little bit more.

I love both, but in my opinion, the weak point of Le Havre is the length of the play in complex modality is about 2 hours and several times it makes too long. But in short mode you finish it in 1 hour.

New Image for Le Havre

New Image for Le Havre

Reply: Le Havre:: General:: Re: Game balance issues....

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by Macrawn

tumorous wrote:

So you've noticed that some things are better than other things.


No, he's noticed how annoying coke is because it drowns out a lot of the other strategies. With so much variety in the game it goes to waste because of the colliery and coke combination.

The Future of Worker Placement

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by M.J.E. Hendriks

Lately I have been thinking a lot about where the future of gaming is headed, and in this blog post I wanted to take a little look at one of the neatest mechanics out there, worker placement. Unlike my last blog post, where I looked at an older game (Yahtzee) and checked out how it affected later games, now I’d like to look at what the future might bring.

Worker placement is an ideal mechanic for adding realism to a game, and for me that is key to a good gaming experience. Of course, gaming is always abstractified (if that’s even a term) life at best, but I do believe that to be immersed in a story one needs some kind of realism, and immersion is key. The story, as we hear from so many game publishers but also from more ‘serious’ (or I should say, businessy) fields like advertising, promotion and sales, is what inspires people to buy into a product or product line. The better the story, the better the people feel about the product, and the more immersed they are in the game, the more fun they’re having. Everyone is looking for an ‘experience’ - it sells.

Looking at the main worker placement games in the industry, it immediately becomes obvious that there hasn’t been too much development in this genre. The game that made the mechanic big, Agricola, has a number of obvious flaws, like the actions that cannot be taken by another player even though it makes no sense whatsoever (I’m having babies this year, so I’m afraid you can’t!), and they get in the way of the suspension of disbelief that is so important in literature and the movies. Of course, you might argue that this suspension of disbelief is a lot less necessary in board gaming – you are, at the end of the day, just playing a game, but real story can truly make a difference.

Development since then has, in my opinion, been mainly in the form of ‘dead ends’ in the evolutionary tree, than true progress. Though oftentimes excellent games, they did nothing to catalyze a revolution or inspire later designers to continue any further down that path. Examples of such games are dice placement (Alien Frontiers, Euphoria), the ‘retrieve all your workers instead of taking an action’ type of games (Manhattan Project, Euphoria), with Raiders of the North Sea combining this submechanic with the base mechanic, allowing players to place a worker and then retrieve one, and of course the ‘planned’ worker placement where the workers do their work all in order after all placement has been done (Age of Empires III, Dominant Species, Robinson Crusoe), but none of these mechanic developments, however cool, have truly set in motion a clear change in design land, none have shown the path to the future.

Another aspect to take into account is the fact that thematic immersion is also problematic due to the fact that the ending of a game is generally so similar. To realistically convey the sense of ‘taking an action’ to further your progress, and to allow for the logical and thematic actions possible within that setting, one must also allow for multiple win conditions, and too few games have multiple win conditions that directly correspond with the thematic immersion. In fact, many will turn out to be games with one clear goal in mind. Agricola, for example, will (generally) require you to expand your family as soon as possible to 5 family members and build a large brick house. Le Havre (not a true worker placement, I know) forces you down a road headed to a place you didn’t even know existed when you first start the game. How one-dimensional do we want these worker placements to be? Other games, like Stone Age, will be faulty (it has been fixed in the meantime) and lead you to totally ignore certain actions because they’re avoidable (feeding people, anyone?).

An interesting development which we will see a lot of in the future, I believe, is the combining of mechanics. We saw this in my attempt at a worker placement, Legacy, where I combined hand management and worker placement, but how about deck building and worker placement? That would be one awesome game, combining two of the most popular mechanics in one. Do we have such a game yet?

Personally I believe the future of gaming in general lies in thematic immersion, like in games such as Time Stories, and that worker placement is the go-to mechanic to achieve this. The goal should be to find a setting with variable starting roles (even if everyone starts the same), and then allow people to make their own choices, to choose their own actions. Come the end of the game, players should be measuring their success based on the path they took, with multiple variable win conditions. Could this turn out like 4 people playing a solo game at the same table? Indeed, but that would be the challenge for the designer of the future – how to work interaction into that as well again!

What do you think the future of gaming in general and worker placement specifically is going to be like? Is this ‘boring’ mechanic passé or will it still be around in ten years?

Thread: Le Havre:: Strategy:: Business Office versus Steel Mill for building ships

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by David Grabiner

There are two ways to get steel: the Business Office lets you trade any four resources for one steel, and the Steel Mill converts iron (and lots of energy) to steel. The Business Office isn't used much, but it actually looks better if you want to build one steel ship and have a lot of otherwise useless tiles. In particular, Feedlot/Business Office makes for a good combination; you'll gain two cows at every harvest, slaughtering six at a time for three hides, so you are likely to have nine hides by the time you want to build steel ships.

Note that I am counting total actions here; you can't use the same building twice in a row, and the building that you need might be occupied, but you can usually find something else useful to do in the meantime.

Steel ship with Business Office:
Business Office: five resources for one steel and one charcoal
Business Office: five resources for one steel and one brick
Wharf: use one charcoal, build steel ship

Net after three turns: one spare brick (if not needed to modernize the wharf), ten hides/fish/etc used. Entry fees are 2 francs and 2 food.

Luxury liner with Business Office:
Business Office 3x: 15 resources for three steel, one charcoal, and two brick
Wharf: use one charcoal, build luxury liner

Net after four turns: two spare brick, 15 hides/fish/etc used. You'll probably have to give up a turn worth of junk to get to 15 resources. Entry fees are 3 francs and 2 food.

Steel ship or luxury liner with Steel Mill:
Colliery: take four coal
Cokery: coke four coal, gain 4 francs
Ironworks: take three iron
Steel Mill: use two coke, convert three iron to steel
Wharf: use one coke, build luxury liner (or steel ship and save one steel for shipping)

Net after five turns: one spare coke, 4 francs gained, one spare steel if you built a steel ship. Entry fees are 4 francs and 4 food.

The Steel Mill is better if you want two steel ships.

Colliery: take four coal
Cokery: coke four coal, gain 4 francs
Ironworks: use one coke to take four iron
Steel Mill: use two coke, convert four iron to steel
Wharf: use one charcoal, build steel ship
Wharf: use one charcoal, build steel ship

Net after six turns: one coke left but two charcoal used, 4 francs gained, two steel ships. Entry fees are 4 francs and 6 food, which is 2 francs and 3 food per ship.
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